Watch the first 11 minutes of this.
CAPARZO. Those sadistic fuckin' animals!
MILLER. Get down.
HILL. They know we're not in direct contact. They're gonna single out the runners.
CAPARZO. Yeah, so who do they keep shooting him like that?
MILLER. As long as his lungs have breath in them he carries the message. We do the same thing.
CAPARZO. No we wouldn't!
MILLER. Wade! Get 'em ready to travel.
MILLER. What was the name of that kid at Anzio...Vecchio. Yeah, Vecchio. He was goofy kid...Vecchio.
HORVATH. He was so short. He was a midget, wasn't he? How did he get to be a Ranger?
MILLER. Vecchio. Yeah. Caparzo. You see, when you end up killing one of your men, you tell yourself it happened so you could save the lives of two or three or ten others. Maybe a hundred others. Do you know how many men I've lost under my command? Ninety Four. But that means I've saved the lives of ten times that many, doesn't it? Maybe even twenty, right? And that's how simple it is. That's how you rationalize making the choice between the mission and the man...That Ryan better be worth it. He'd better go home and cure a disease or invent the longer lasting light bulb because the truth is I wouldn't trade ten Ryans for one Vecchio or one Caparzo.
HORVATH. Amen.
Poor Caparzo didn't last long on this mission. After his death, Reiben mutters, "Fuck Ryan." And Miller makes clear Caparzo and even silly Vecchio, who peed a V on everyone's jacket, are worth more to him than Ryan—and maybe even Upham, who the squad either ignores or insults or makes fun of. "Brotherhood," Mellish says to him, "what do you know about brotherhood?" Upham is an outsider, not part of the tribe, someone who wasn't on the beach with them, or with them at Anzio, or at Kasserine Pass. War has made these men hard.
1. When Miller asks Horvath for men to fill the squad, he mentions one, and Horvath says something along the lines of "He died this morning." Without missing a beat, Miller says, "Mellish." The men seem interchangeable to him. Two questions: A) is that a factual statement—the men are interchangeable to Miller? And B) why is the squad so callous to Upham, a perfectly nice fella who's trying to be friendly to them?
2. The theme(s) of the movie are becoming clear(er). What do you see as one of the major themes in it? Go ahead and quote from anything I've quoted above. How is this theme being played out here?
3. What has stayed with you from today's viewing? And why?
Tomorrow, things get even more intense. See you tomorrow morning.
1 A) While it is possibly a factual statement, at this time in the movie, the statement “the men are interchangeable to Miller” is insufficiently supported. There are several supporting moments in the film so far that indicate the men are interchangeable to Miller, such as when he moves onto another soldier to fill the squad when he learns Horvath is dead or thinks of the soldiers under his command as other lives he has saved. These moments seem to indicate that Miller views the men as interchangeable, but at this point in the film, the audience has not seen into Miller’s perspective in a deep enough way to declare that he views all his men as interchangeable.
ReplyDeleteB) They are callus to Upham because he is “green as grass.” Upham is a danger to himself and the soldiers around him simply because he is so laughably unprepared to fight in a war. The soldiers' sentiment is also expressed in Siegel’s Smile, There Are IEDs Everywhere. Seigel tells of soldiers who routinely talk of the same select people from their military days: They were anyone who’d made things harder than they had to be, or hurt our chances of coming home, or almost got us killed by some mistake. They were the shitbags, martinets, and weaklings who fucked us with their petty… incompetence…” Upham is the type of soldier that the others hate because of his naive, incompetent nature. He is the type of soldier who hurts others’ chances of going home.
2 The theme that jumped out at me the most, also because of its prevalence in previous readings is the message that humanity is weakness during war. Illustrated by Miller’s quote in SPR: “As long as his lungs have breath in them he carries the message. We do the same thing.” The Germans keep eviscerating the runner’s body because of the strategic value he has to the Americans. The act of mutilating a nearly dead man with a machine gun is far from humane, but it is the most tactically advantageous
3 It is a small detail, but I remember how the sniper prays while he lines up his shot on an enemy. I think this stays with me because of the irony. He is not praying for forgiveness, but strength and success. The irony comes from the fact he is asking the Lord for his help to break the commandment, thou shalt not kill. Also, as a side note, he has not yet missed a shot, and I think that might be a bit of symbolism from Speilberg.
1. A) I do not think it is a factual statement to say that the men are interchangeable to him. He's been through so much with these men and they grown a strong bond and Miller mentions that whoever this Ryan is, he is not worth the lives of Caparzo and Vecchio. It matters to him who dies, they are more than just dog tags. B) These men are so callous to Upham because he has not gone through what they have gone through together. Upham is soft and naive. These men have survived together and grown together and have become bonded together through all that they have seen and experienced. Upham just met them and has never fought in a war before, he can't relate to what they have been through and he cannot sympathize or understand.
ReplyDelete2. Tough times bond people together the most. When you have gone through something hard with someone and have been able to come out the other side with them, you are pretty much bonded for life. One of themes I have noticed so far in this movie is the theme of brotherhood. All of the soldiers are bonded and have sense of brotherhood with each other after all that they have survived and gone through in the war. They have made it this far together."...That Ryan better be worth it. He'd better go home ad cure a disease or invent the longer lasting light bulb because the truth is I wouldn't trade ten Ryans for one Vecchio or one Caparzo." Whether these soldiers like to admit it or not, they are now brothers. It's obvious to tell how close they have grown with each other when we see an outsider like Upham come late into the game and try bond with the already bonded crew. It's so hard for Upham to get to know these guys because he hasn't gone through what they have been through together and come out the other side with them.
3. I am constantly on edge while watching this movie. There has not been a time in the movie that I have not been worried about what's going to happen in the next scene. I'm scared and I'm just watching the war, I'm not even in it. One thing that stuck with me from today's viewing was the scene when Vin Diesel's character tries to help the terrified children from the ruined building. He was just trying to help them and do the right thing and he ended up dead. I guess that's just how things go in war. War is unfair, shocking, and extremely suspenseful. You never know what's going to happen, who is going to die next, or what is going to end up getting you killed.
ReplyDelete1.A.) The men are not interchangeable to Miller. When Miller and Horvath talk in the church, Miller clearly feels guilty about losing so many men under his command. The fond way he remembers Vecchio proves that he sees the men as individuals rather than interchangeable soldiers.
B.) Upham only knows of the “brotherhood” he alludes to through stories and watching others, while Miller’s command has formed a bond through various fights as a means of survival. The group is annoyed by how Upham talks about brotherhood as if he knows what it is, when really Upham has no idea. Upham also does not know the basic customs that the other soldiers have ingrained in their heads making him a misfit in the group.
2.One of the major themes is desensitization which is prevalent in all war. A quote that illustrates this theme perfectly is the one in the title of the blog, “We're Not Here To Do The Decent Thing! We're Here To Follow Fuckin' Orders!” Although the decent thing would be to take the children, the only way they can survive is through following orders. In order to stay alive, the soldiers must harden themselves in order to not feel emotions like grief or fear so intensely. Those feelings would distract them and eventually kill them just like Caparzo.
3.I was touched by the scene of the soldier who describes pretending to be asleep when his mother came home from work. Although the soldier is being vulnerable about a moment very specific to his own life, all the other men seem to understand exactly what he was feeling. Being so close to death and so far away from home makes the men wish they had not taken their normal lives before the war and their family members for granted.
1.A)I don’t think that the men are interchangeable to Miller but that he realizes there is not time to think about their deaths. Miller is a leader, and if he were to break down when he learned of each of his soldiers’ deaths, he would be unable to successfully lead his group. Also, Miller talks about Caparzo and Vecchio and says that they are worth more than Ryan. This is evidence that he does care about his men and that he sees valuable attributes (such as goofiness) in each of them.
ReplyDeleteB)I think that Upham is mocked because he is inexperienced. He does not realize that these men do not want to talk about their lives or brotherhood. They are about to enter dangerous territory for a mission that most of the men do not respect. Because he has never been in action, he does not know what these men have seen, how to talk to them, etc. To the other soldiers, he is annoying and an easy target to mock.
2. I think that sacrifice is a major theme in the movie. Leaders in war have to deal with situations in which they must sacrifice something or somebody for the greater good. Miller says that “when you end up killing one of your men, you tell yourself it happened so you could save the lives of two or three or ten others.” The mission is so difficult for him because he believes that he has, arguably, already sacrificed too much and says that Ryan “better be worth it.”
3. I keep remembering when the little girl is lifted back up to her family and slaps her father. I was expecting her to hug him, but instead, she is upset, which is totally understandable. Her parents handed her off to soldiers that speak a different language with no clear plan as to where she was going. I think this shows how crazy war and fear can make both soldiers and civilians.
The men are not interchangeable to Miller, which we see in the quote where Miller says he values Vecchio and Caparzo over Ryan. He does not have the time to debate which man he would rather do a job; he has to choose right off the bat solely based on who would be the best with the given assignment.
ReplyDeleteI do not think they are necessarily “callous” to Upham, just not incredibly friendly. Upham has not faced the same level of adversity like the others. He has not been on the front lines, directly risking his life like the other soldiers. Upham cannot even begin to imagine what it was like on the beach, analogously to how the non-soldier (us) cannot fathom warfare; it is just something you cannot explain; you have to be there. Also, Upham is not used to the group dynamic. He does not know how things work. He accidentally gestures with his rifle towards someone’s head, and he talks incessantly while the group’s focus is to survive.
I think one of the major themes in this film is the individual soldier v. the group and the goal. This is displayed when Miller says, “That Ryan better be worth it.” Is any one specific soldier “worth it?” Who decides who is worth possibly screwing up an operation of such severity? I believe Miller says this 1) because Ryan is not even a part of the group of which he is the captain and 2) because I do not believe he would risk other men’s lives for the sake of one man. One soldier in the film says, “We’ve all go mothers,” stating that everyone is risking their lives and every soldier cannot and is not given special treatment regardless of their background. The individual is not valued over the goal of winning the war.
The scene where Caparzo says the little girl reminds him of his niece right before he is shot while trying to take her with him has stuck with me. First off, I think taking the girl with them would risk her survival, but also I was shocked that he felt such a strong bond to a girl he did not know and was willing to jeopardize his own life trying to help her. Watching Caparzo’s obviously close friend rewrite Caparzo’s blood-soaked letter to his father was powerful and heartbreaking.
(I think Jackson, the sharpshooter, is an incredibly dynamic character, but I doubt he’ll survive.)
Prompt One: No, I don’t think that the men are interchangeable to Miller. Especially when he values their lives and calls them by name… “Caparzo and Vecchio worth at least 10 Ryans…” If anything, he may be guilty for having supervised so many men who died, and that’s why he jokes with the current squad that “The gripes go up” because he doesn’t want to grow too close (something which he has already done). Even when scolding, (we shouldn’t have taken the child) he’s really just mad about Carparzo’s death, not actually trying to be a strict and impersonal leader.
ReplyDeletePrompt Two: We’ve mentioned in class that this movie was meant to be very accurate to true war, and that the opening scene intends to provide some shock value. I think that a theme could be “War isn’t as glorious as you may think” because of Carparzo’s conversation with Miller.
CAPARZO. Yeah, so who do they keep shooting him like that?
MILLER. As long as his lungs have breath in them he carries the message. We do the same thing.
CAPARZO. No we wouldn't!
Carparzo reacts similarly to how I might, and I am again reminded of the opening when the American boys shot the surrendering soldiers. I shared Caraparzo’s disbelief at what is happening in front of us, but the film does a good job of reinforcing the theme of atrocities occurring whether we like them or not.
Prompt Three: What has stayed with me is the representation of the trauma that Miller carries. We see his shaking hands, and I feel especially sad that he tries to hold back from opening up his troubles to others who are clearly their for him. That scene in the church was powerful for me because on one side of the room we clearly see that the troops share stories from home, and on the other side Miller sits alone, containing what bothers him.
1. I definitely don’t think the men are interchangeable to Miller. He even says so himself that he wouldn’t trade ten Ryan’s for for one Vecchio or Caparzo. Miller cares a lot for the men he leads, but at the same time, he is aware of how valuable their time is. He does not waste time grieving when his men die: he moves on respectfully and with dignity (for better or for worse, as he is clearly affected deeply by the stress of war, as seen in his shaking hands). I think Upham represents an outsider coming into their tightly knit circle, and it is clear that the soldiers think this as well. He is a change in their routine, an unwelcome addition to a squad that, they might think, was perfectly fine without him.
ReplyDelete2. A major theme that sticks out to me is individual vs. community. There have been many suggestions of each soldier’s life being unique, precious and valuable, implying the importance of an individual. However, the film also contradicts itself as Spielberg stresses how insignificant one life can be as well, in the grand scheme of the war. It’s an interesting tug-of-war between two very contrary ideas, but I think it makes the story that much more realistic: war is never black and white.
3. In today’s section, we start to notice the effects of the war on Miller, someone who in previous scenes seems steadfast and unwavering in his bravery. The scene in the church, with his shaking hands and heartfelt stories of lost soldiers, humanizes him and makes him seem more vulnerable and honest. It makes the audience (myself included) empathize with him more, and appreciate him more as a well-rounded character.
ReplyDelete1a) I believe that the men are not interchangeable at all to him because he clearly remembers the exact number of men under his command, their names, and their personalities. “Do you know how many men I've lost under my command? Ninety Four.” However, in the line of war, a leader must make quick and painful decisions.
1b)In my point of view, the men are very callous to Upham because he has not experienced the same gruesome encounters that the rest have had during war. He romanticized war itself, giving optimism to it, when the rest know war is anything but that. By being in the battlefield, it gives the rest of the soldiers a certain connection that Upham never had.
2) I think a major theme will be questioning whether the life of one man is worth more than the lives of others. In short, many of the soldiers already begin to question their mission, saying it is a waste of valuable resources. “That's how you rationalize making the choice between the mission and the man...That Ryan better be worth it. He'd better go home and cure a disease or invent a longer lasting light bulb because the truth is I wouldn't trade ten Ryans for one Vecchio or one Caparzo.” This theme is played out a lot during conversations, such as when the men trudge through the grass, stay overnight in the church, and meet with the general of another squad. “I’m sure your brother’s just fine.” Although these soldiers are told this a noble deed they are doing, it is hard to accept that their lives are easily exchangeable for someone else’s, whom them haven’t even met.
3) The most memorable part of today’s viewing is when the parent’s try to hand over their daughter, (“Take the children.”) as well as when the daughter climbs up the rumbles to continuously slapping her father. This captures a new point of view: not from the soldiers, or families with loved ones in war, but rather ordinary civilians that happen to be on the land of the battlefield. It encompasses that war does not discriminate, and that it can especially be scarring for anyone, especially the children.
A) No, the men aren’t interchangeable to him. He cares about all of them, we see how he tries to justify their deaths later in the movie. He has just seen so much death and has become so calloused to death that he is used to having people die, and having to plan around their deaths.
ReplyDeleteB) They feel like Upham is an outsider. In the short stories we have read we see how soldiers feel separate from civilians, how they feel like outsiders when they return home. The same goes who when the soldiers, in the climate that shaped their mind, are among someone who has never seen combat before. They feel like he’s an outsider, and will not be able to understand what they’ve been through.
One major theme I see is the idea of “us vs them”. Often the Germans are displayed as the ‘bad guys’, and it is easy to think of them as such, but when it comes to the individual soldiers the movie takes steps to show that they are equally bad, and equally good. From one of the first scenes, with the American soldiers killing the surrendering men to the conversation about the runner “We do the same thing.
No we wouldn’t!”, the movie asks how different the Americans are from the Germans.
The note has stayed with me. Caparzo had written a letter for his dad, and as he was dying he asked the men to rewrite it and send it. The men reply that he will write it himself once they get out of there in an effort to comfort him, but they were unable to help him in time. The medic, Jackson, takes the note from Caparzo, and we see him rewriting it later. During this scene full of tension, while Caparzo was slowly dying a few feet away from unreachable help, his thoughts went to this note from his family. His dying wish was for this note to be delivered, without his blood on it, to his family, and Jackson fulfilled it without question.
A. No, the men are not interchangeable to Miller. As Miller states, “Do you know how many men I've lost under my command? Ninety Four,” he has felt the loss of each one of the men under his command or he would not have counted. I think that instead of moving on from their losses quickly, Miller has learned to hold his reflection until the time is fit. An example of a moment of reflection is the scene in the church when Miller has time to look back on memories of past men. B. I think that the men are so callous to Upham because he is not brawny and has not been through the war yet. The men see him as an outsider in a group of hardened soldiers who have survived battles in the past. The previous battles have fostered the idea that each man can trust one another with their lives and Upham has not earned this unspoken bond yet.
ReplyDeleteI think that a major theme is compassion. On the beach, we see two soldiers show no compassion for the surrendering Germans, and this moment shows the audience that compassion is not a virtue in war. Later, in the town, Caparzo sees the Germans continuing to fire on a dead body and feels compassion for the fallen man. He even says, “why do they keep shooting him like that?” Following that moment Caparzo proceeds to help a little girl whose house has been destroyed, and the men surrounding look at him as if he is crazy. These three examples show that compassion is not valued and is a theme thus far in Saving Private Ryan.
Something that stayed with me from today’s viewing was the idea that no one knows Miller’s job. I think that characterizes the relationship between these soldiers very well because it shows that no matter how much they will struggle through, there are still very trivial aspects of their lives that they don’t know.
1. A) The men are not interchangeable to Miller. This is evident in the scene quoted above. Miller speaks openly about how sad he is to have lost Vecchio and Caparzo when the men he commands are not in earshot. He has to keep a facade of nonchalance, but he actually really cares about his troops.
ReplyDeleteB)The squad views Upham as an outsider. The squad seems to know without anyone telling them that the last time Upham fired a gun was during training. They may not like having any new people trying to be a part of their squad, but they especially dislike having someone who seems so unscathed by the war. When the squad is walking with the greenery and talking about why they have to go find private Ryan, Upham uses convoluted language to express the purpose of their mission.
2. Duty vs. desire seems to be a major theme. The point of the movie is finding a private, so his mother will have one remaining son because the military chief-of-staff feels a duty toward the mother of the son. The soldiers who are sent out to look for Ryan are following orders, but they do not have a desire to find private Ryan and send him home to his mother because as one of the soldiers said, “hey, doc, I gotta mother” and this soldier and the other people with mothers are not being sent home. Miller says, “You see, when you end up killing one of your men, you tell yourself it happened so you could save the lives of two or three or ten others.” He is grappling with his duty, to save the most amount of lives, and his desire to save the men he has grown to love.
3. When the father who lived in the house that had a whole wall taken out handed his daughter to the soldier, tears almost came to my eyes. It was an incredibly sad moment because the father had more faith in the random American soldiers to protect his daughter than himself. The entire scene with the family was pretty jarring. When the young girl gets reunited with her father after the skirmish and starts punching her father while he uncontrollably sobs, I had one recurring thought. That thought was that that moment would stay with her forever and I do not know if she will ever forgive her dad for handing her over even though he was trying to do the right thing.
I don’t think the men are interchangeable to him at all. There is so much going on and death is such an ordinary part of this landscape he simply didn’t remember that the death of that man had happened. It’s less that his men are interchangeable than that in a moment of distraction, he still thinks that they are alive and well. Survival during wartime is a pretty big distraction from the specifics of one death. Also, considering how frequent death does occur, especially in battle, it must become pretty common to have to rapidly reassign roles. Miller obviously still cares; he knows exactly how many men have died under his command, but it is necessary for him to compartmentalism and take care of the mission and the living members of his team first.
ReplyDeleteUpham has not gone through the same trauma they have. He’s inevitably going to come across as hapless, and maybe a bit elitist and out-of-touch, even if he is not trying to be. After all, his talent with languages gets him out of the direct fighting and he quotes all sorts of authors on war, taking their word as gospel. There’s also that scene from yesterday where he tries to take a typewriter and additional duffel with him. He is clearly an observer, and privileged enough to be sheltered and naive. This naivety makes him come across kind of like a puppy nipping at the heels of busy people. It’s safe for them to push him around a little for being overly hopeful and annoying.
I think one of the major themes is how immoral war is, or at least how different the morals of war are from those in civilian life. From the normalcy of the blood and violence, to shooting surrendering soldiers, to even the fact Miller doing the right thing consists of repeatedly putting his men in danger to complete his mission, there’s a practicality and brutality enforced by trying to serve and survive that doesn’t quite mesh with typical standards of morality. Most strikingly in this section, Carpazo attempts to save the little girl and take her out of the battlefield, despite the fact he is currently fighting. Miller responds by yelling, “We’re not here to do the decent thing! We’re here to follow fuckin’ orders!” Necessity in wartime supersedes any kind of morality, both for survival, and because the job of the soldier is to fight the enemy and go where directed. In the end, this moment of softness gets Carpazo killed.
I remember the wrong James Ryan’s response to thinking he would be going home because his brother was dead, and then finding out his brother was probably fine, but he was not going home. While he was devastated by the news that his brother was dead, he couldn’t even be happy knowing his brother was alive, since the loss of his ticket home hit just as hard. It really drove home how horrible psychologically being in the war must be. He didn’t think he’d make it home to see his siblings again, and the false hope of escaping the nightmare of combat kind of crushes his ability to keep up a facade and continue to cope in that moment. As some of the quotes we read in the beginning pointed out, the human brain is just not designed to cope with that amount of stress.
1a. The men do not appear to be interchangeable to Miller. In fact from his conversations it is rather obvious that Miller cares very deeply about his men. The death of his men clearly affects him deeply as we can infer by the shakiness of his hands when he reflects on lost lives such as Carpazo and Vecchio’s. However, as their leader, Miller is also aware of how his reaction affects the rest of the unit, and so he does not grieve openly in front of his men.
ReplyDelete1b. Upham is an inexperienced soldier who has not fought in battle alongside these men, and is a potential liability due to his lack of experience. For these reasons, the squad views him as an outsider and consequently treat him as such. Despite his friendliness and genuine desire to forge relationships with the other men, Upham still holds a rather idealized notion of brotherhood. The bond between the unit is not the result of glorious battles the squad fought together, but the horrific experiences they have undergone and this is something that Upham has yet to learn.
2. I think that one major theme of the movie is sacrifice. Sacrifice is a tremendous part of war in general, and this particular movie furthers that idea by having the entire plot centralized around a mission to save one life. Miller is one character that we see struggle with this concept, especially as the one who is in charge: “But that means I've saved the lives of ten times that many, doesn't it? Maybe even twenty, right? And that's how simple it is. That's how you rationalize making the choice between the mission and the man…”
3. One small detail that stuck with me today was when one man from the unit (I’m not exactly sure who) retrieved the letter from Carpazo’s dead grasp. Later, the same soldier is seen copying down the words from the blood soaked letter unto a fresh piece of paper. The care and attention to detail of this task, though rather minor, was very touching meaningful to me.