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| Boulevard des Capucines, Claude Monet, 1873. Jake walks here on his way to work. |
"Couldn't we live together, Brett? Couldn't we just live together?
"I don't think so. I'd just tromper [deceive] you with everybody. It's the way I'm made."
"I stand it now."
"That would be different. It's my fault, Jake. It's the way I'm made."
"Couldn't we go off in the country for a while?"
"It wouldn't be any good. I'll go if you like. But I couldn't live quietly in the country. Not with my own true love."
"I know."
"Isn't it rotten? There isn't any use my telling you I love you."
"You know I love you."
"Let's not talk. Talking's all bilge. I'm going away from toy and then Michael's coming back."
"Why are you going away?"
"Better for you. Better for me." (62)
Below the line where his ribs stopped were two raised white welts. "See on the back where they come out." Above the same of the back were the same two scars, raised as thick as a finger.
"I say. Those are something."
"Clean through."
The count was tucking in his shirt.
"Where did you get those?" I asked.
"In Abyssinia. When I was twenty-one years old."
"What were you doing?" asked Brett. "Were you in the arm?"
"I was on a business trip, my dear."
"I told you he was one of us. Didn't I?" Brett turned to me. "I love you, count. You're a darling." (67)
"You see, Mr. Barnes, it is because I have lived very much that now I can enjoy everything so well. Don't you find it like that?"
"Yes. Absolutely."
"I know," said the count. "That is the secret. You must get to know the values."
"Doesn't anything ever happen to your values?" Brett asked.
"No. Not any more."
"Never fall in love."
"Always," the count said. "I am always in love."
"What does that do to your values?"
"That, too, has a place in my values."
"You haven't any values. You're dead, that's all."
"No, my dear. You're not right. I'm not dead at all."
We drank three bottles of the champagne and the count left the basket in my kitchen. We dined at a restaurant in the Bois. It was a good dinner. Food had an excellent place in the count's values. So did wine.The count was in fine form during the meal. (67-68)
"All right," Brett said. "Let's have one."
"Sommelier!" the count called.
"Yes, sir."
"What is the oldest brandy you have?"
"Eighteen eleven, sir."
"Bring us a bottle."
"I say. Don't be ostentatious. Call him off, Jake."
"Listen, my dear. I get more value for my money in old brandy than in any other antiquities." (68)
All along people were going to work. It felt pleasant to be going to work. I walked across the avenue and turned into my office. (43)
Mary Duff Sterling, Lady Twysden, the real life model for Lady Brett Ashley.
Last time I taught this book, Karolina Edlund said she found it hard to like any of the characters in this novel. She said something along the lines of they had no morals. Which Hemingway knows: there's a deliberate emptiness in many of these people. Back in Chapter III, Georgette attempts to touch Jake's crotch, and Jake "put her hand away."
"Never mind."
"What's the matter? You sick?"
"Yes."
"Everybody's sick. I'm sick, too." (23)
Indeed, this is a sick world. The sickness we are still defining. Gertrude Stein dubbed the people Hemingway writing about "The Lost Generation," and there is something lost about them. But perhaps not completely lost.
1. We were talking about the sickness in this world—and is it only in the Us rather than the Them (thank you, Keyes, for giving us a clear distinction). I still ask the question: is "everybody sick" as Georgette claims (probably in a more specific and clinical way than what the Hem is looking for)? Or is it only some? Or no one at all? Support your response by talking specifically about what we see in the novel—not quotes, but specific details.
1. Count Mippipopolous—say that fast three times—appears in the novel and disappears pretty quickly; he does not return after Chapter 7. Yet critics of the novel acknowledge his importance in it. On the surface he seems to be like all those around him, but with better taste in liquor. Yet he is different. He and Jake seem to bond quickly; Jake enjoys his time with Mippi. "'It was a wonderful time,'" he tells the Count and tried to pay for him. My question: what makes the Count different from what we've seen to this point—and how might he offer some way out of the sickness or "the nightmare" Jake feels occurring as he dances with Brett at Zelli's: "I had the feeling as in a nightmare of it all being something repeated, something I had been through and that now I must go through again" (71)?
That's all. See everyone tomorrow.
1. I agree with Georgette that everyone is sick (well, almost everyone, but I’ll get to that in the next question). It is hard to tell what the sickness is, but the thing that I see that is common across Jake, Brett, and Georgette is unhappiness and dissatisfaction with life. While he acts ‘hard-boiled’ during the day, at night, when he breaks down in tears, we can see how unhappy he is. Brett directly says that she is miserable, and Georgette talks about how little she like Paris, and also seems upset with her life. While we strongly see these traits in the Us, we also see them in the Them. Granted, there are fewer examples in the Them, as we do not see their true thoughts as much as the Us, but we still see that unhappiness in Robert Cohn. He tells Jake that he thinks his life is stale, and is clearly dissatisfied with it. Even though he has been spoiled, he is getting 300 dollars a month from his mother as an adult, he still is unhappy with his life.
ReplyDelete2. The Count seems to have lived a full life that he is satisfied with, he seems to be the one character who isn’t as sick as all the others. Brett says that the Count is “quite one of us”, because he’s been injured fighting in various wars, which may be true, but unlike all the other characters, especially the Us, he enjoys his life; He says to Jake: “You see, Mr. Barnes, it is because I have lived very much that now I can enjoy everything so well.” (67). I think the Count, at one point in time, was one of the Us, but after living his life, drinking a lot of alcohol and “soldiering” seven wars and four revolutions, he became content with his life. He cured himself of the sickness felt by almost everyone else in the novel so far.
It is clear from Hemmingway’s development of Jake and Brett that the two are sick in some way; Jake says it himself and shows it crying alone in his room, and Brett manifests her sickness through her alcoholism. It is unclear how the count is sick, but Brett explicitly says he is one of “us” after he tells a true war story. Brett lost her one true love during the war; Jake lost a piece of his masculinity; the count was almost killed; all three of them have been changed by war. They have fallen ill from the dirty nature of war.
ReplyDeleteI think what the count offers Jake is perspective; the count nearly died at the age of 21, and, because of his brush with death, he lives his life to the fullest. He drinks, dines loves, and does not let his past impede his enjoyment of life. He differs from everyone around him because of his take on life, one of enjoyment and fulfillment rather than career or relationship “success.” He offers Jake a way out of his life by changing the way Jake views the world; Jake sees the world as a set of people and places of which he thinks highly or lowly, but the count looks for the small joys in the world: fine wines, fine food, fine company.
I agree with what Leo and Keyes have said about them showing their vulnerability to the reader in intimate times. Although, I also believe that all the characters in the book suffer from some sort of sickness, but Jake and Brett are the only ones whose sickness is made apparent because the book is mainly told through their perspectives. The sickness that they suffer seems to come from multiple sources, but the root of the suffering comes from the fact that the characters all lack a sense of purpose. Hemmingway illustrates this point by depicting his character as everyday people who are not heroic. Unlike most novels, the protagonist does not seem passionate about anything except for the one person he can not have, Brett. His misery comes from the fact that he is not enough for the person he feels purpose and passion for. Perhaps, the characters felt a sense of purpose during the war, but now struggle to direct their lives in a meaningful and fulfilling way
ReplyDeleteI agree with Keyes that the Count is different because he finds pleasure and fulfillment in little things. The Count does not look for purpose in things that are conceptual and sometimes unattainable like love, but rather in small measurable things like wine. Similar to Jake, the Count was wounded in the war. Rather than wallowing in what he has lost in the war and trying to define himself in the person he used to be, like Jake does, he’s learned from his near death experience to live life to the fullest.
1. I do believe and agree with the statement that everyone is sick. By sick I mean dissatisfied and feeling somewhat empty and then trying to fill that emptyness with anything that they can, and in this case in the novel it's drinking and alcohol. All of the characters, especially Brett and Jake, are looking for something that makes living worthwhile. Jake can't understand why he wasn't given it all like Robert was at birth, and he also feels like he is not worthy of love or a wife since he can't actually function properly in sex. Brett is miserable. She has all these people who adore her, all these men who want to be with her and attracted to her, and yet she still feels so alone and turns to drinking for comfort. Robert wants to get away because he is looking for his purpose and feels like he has not lived his life to the extent that he should. All these characters are sick because they have trouble finding the bright and meaning in their lives.
ReplyDelete2. I think that Count Mippipopulous is different because I get the sense that he is a lot more optimistic than the other characters, especially Brett and Jake, in the novel. For some reason when I read about Count, as opposed to when I read about the other characters, there's a certain pep in his step that the other characters lack. He is not looking for purpose and he is content with his life. He can't relate to the sort of miserableness that all of the other characters feel because he doesn't let every single sort of set back in his life get him down and he doesn't feel like he needs to make a drastic change in order to be happy and fulfilled. He is the only character that I think is not sick.
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ReplyDeletePrompt One: I don’t think Cohn is sick. If the sickness, as we talked about today, has to do with an inside vs. outside self, I think that Cohn is rather similar in public as he is in private. Those who are sick (Brett, for instance) do have this split personality-as noted by the concierge-but when we hear about Cohn, he is described as a child… even the opening chapter characterizes him as frank and simple person, so I struggle to believe that he is sick. Yes, he suffered a bad divorce and doesn’t like Paris, but these are inconveniences, not character-defining sufferings. The only thing that was weird to me about him was how, at the end of chapter six, he just sat there as Frances berated him. That was strange, but at the end of the day, could just be his personality.
ReplyDeletePrompt Two:The Count doesn’t joke. He is frank, but unlike Cohn, not simple because he’s one of “us” and has arrow wounds from a business trip in Abyssinia. Jake gets on well with him mainly because the Count is os amicable. He’s smiling often and comments that Jake is a very nice person. In addition to providing lots of fine drinks (because values) he lives his life trying to enjoy the drinks, not get drunk. This reminds me of Jake’s comment about the bullfighters whom he admires for living their lives fully. If Jake can live like he, then perhaps the sickness can be overcome.
1. I think that all the characters are sick and the only distinction between the characters considered “us” and those deemed “them” is the seriousness of their illness. Jake’s sickness is his war wound and resulting impotence, and Brett’s is her alcoholism and leading on of many men at once. These “sicknesses” are obvious, but other characters have issues that I would consider “sickness” as well. Robert Cohn is depressed and longs for another woman. He sits in the bar staring at Brett. Frances is unstable and insecure about her relationship with Robert Cohn. She yells at him and tells Jake about how she has to marry Cohn because she could never get another man. These other characters are sick as well and I think this plays off what Georgette said. It is part of the human condition to be “sick.”
ReplyDelete2. I think Count Mippipopolous is different than the other characters in the novel because he understands the value of life. Clearly, he has been through struggle and war as he says, “I have got arrow wounds.” Although he has been through these situations, he is the most positive character we have met thus far. Jake states, “It was a wonderful time” when referring to his time with the count. The count radiates positivity in a way that no other character does that we have met. Both Jake and Brett are very negative and judgmental, but the count is different from them. I think that he offers a way out of the nightmare for Jake because he could teach Jake to fulfill his life more.
It is definitely starting to appear that more than just Jake’s group is sick. We see a side to Frances that I could not have even begun to imagine which was honestly pretty badass in a sense because she removes her mask just for a moment and one of my favorite and also one of the saddest points in the book so far. It makes me imagine what dialogue I would be reading if every character removed their mask. Most of the people in this book don’t seem to take much initiative, but when Frances says, “He’s really very generous. Aren’t you Robert?,” I acquired an entirely different, somewhat abrasive tone to the novel that I think lurks beneath the stangnancy of the characters. I am not yet sure what the sickness is, exactly.
ReplyDeleteThe Count has been to war. Mippi is not like the others. He has the Brett and Jake stamps of approval which appear to be very difficult to attain, which is impressive. He has scars and he is not afraid to reveal them (at least not to Brett and Jake. We have not seen his interactions with others.) When I imagine a nightmare that just keeps getting repeated over and over, I am always be myself. I think repetition is easier to imagine when you are all alone, which I think is how Jake feels, especially regarding his perspective on the world. I think Jake feels like he’s in a nightmare because he often has to exist in his headspace alone as Them (They?) do not recognize the mask/facade like Jake does. Mippi exists in the same headspace as Jake, so he gives him a companion with whom to scorn the world around them. Mippi is also relatively more upbeat than Jake and Brett, even saying, “I am always in love” and “it is because I have lived very much that now I can enjoy everything so well.” He has somehow managed to find a little bit of peace, even if it comes in the form of great champagne. He has somehow managed to love his vice beyond just its calming/detachment effects but also for its quality (taste, etc.) which I find interesting.
1. We were talking about the sickness in this world—and is it only in the Us rather than Them (thank you, Keyes, for giving us a clear distinction). I still ask the question: is "everybody sick" as Georgette claims (probably in a more specific and clinical way than what the Hem is looking for)? Or is it only some? Or no one at all? Support your response by talking specifically about what we see in the novel—not quotes, but specific details.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that to some extent, everyone is sick. So far, all the main characters have a feeling of emptiness or brokenness within themselves that could be characterized as “the sickness”. However, I believe the sickness is very different for different people. Before reading this passage, it could be assumed that Robert’s Cohen’s sickness is that he is severely bored and is done with Paris. On the other hand, after reading the reading for tonight, it seems as though his brokenness stems from something much greater, specifically when Frances talks down to him and he just takes it. Even Jake is suprised. In the term of Us (Jake and Brett), I feel like a big part of the brokeness or sickness is being the aftereffect of the war. After Count Muppipopolous mentions his battle scars, Brett immediately says that she always knew that he was one of them. The hurting and experience after experiencing a war is another type of sickness that The Hem explores.
2. Count Mippipopolous—say that fast three times—appears in the novel and disappears pretty quickly; he does not return after Chapter 7. Yet critics of the novel acknowledge his importance in it. On the surface he seems to be like all those around him, but with better taste in liquor. Yet he is different. He and Jake seem to bond quickly; Jake enjoys his time with Mippi. "'It was a wonderful time,'" he tells the Count and tried to pay for him. My question: what makes the Count different from what we've seen to this point—and how might he offer some way out of the sickness or "the nightmare" Jake feels occurring as he dances with Brett at Zelli's: "I had the feeling as in a nightmare of it all being something repeated, something I had been through and that now I must go through again" (71)?
I would argue that the most defining and important role that Count Mippipopolous plays is during the scene where he shows Jake and Brett his battle scars. In doing so, Brett immediately claims that he is “one of them”, someone who has not only experienced a war, but multiple. “I have been in seven wars and four revolutions” (66). By stating that he has been apart of the war, Jake can now feel an undeniable connection with him that others in the story could not. Even Brett, who was in the war, was a nurse and did not fight on the battlefield, therefore having a very different experience. We as an audience can presume that Jake also fought on the battlefield when he asks the count if he did as well. When replying yes, it gives him an even deeper connection. Jake now has someone who can truly understand him in a different way. In addition, the count seem like a pretty well off guy, having enough money to have vintage wine and catering from butlers. He could act as a symbolism or an example for Jake, giving him hope that he too, a man from war, will be able to live well in the future.
1. I think that almost everyone is sick, but some people have it worse than others. I think the “sickness” is just pain, unhappiness, and uneasiness. Jake and Brett seem to be the most miserable because of their love lives. Jake has been affected by the war, and Brett can’t seem to find the thing for which she is looking. She doesn’t think about her fiance at all, yet she will likely still marry him. Cohn is also unhappy and restless, as he feels stuck in his relationship and is even unable to write. From what we have read, I don’t think that Count Mippipopolous is sick because he seems content with his life (he enjoys the parties and drinking nice alcohol); however, he might be sick, and we just don’t get a good point of view to see how he truly feels.
ReplyDelete2. Like other people have mentioned, the Count enjoys life. Unlike the other characters, he actually likes to party and drink (instead of using them as ways to escape), and he does not seem to be focused on the effects of war, despite having been to war several times. He is not reliving his painful experiences. I think the Count offers a ‘cure’ to the sickness by encouraging the other characters to enjoy life and to not dwindle in the past. Also, another way in which the Count is different is his treatment of Brett. He, like the other men in the story, loves Brett, but he doesn’t seem to care when she wants to spend time with Jake or others. He does not appear to get jealous.
1) I think every character in this story is sick in some way. They all have their problems, they all have things that worry them or keep them from being happy. I think the distinction (the Us vs. Them, if you will) is their awareness of this said sickness. I think Jake, Brett and Georgette know they are unhappy. Brett makes it painfully obvious by simply saying “I’m miserable, darling” over and over to whoever will listen. Jake cries himself to sleep, and knows exactly why he’s doing it. Georgette is blunt and annoyed with Parisians, and doesn’t seem to be living under any sort of veil or facade. I don’t think the other characters are aware of their sickness, or if they are, I’m not sure they know what the root cause of their unhappiness is. That being said, we only know what Jake sees and thinks. We have no idea what the other characters are like behind closed doors. They could be crying themselves to sleep nightly, and maybe they are.
ReplyDelete2) I think the Count is an extremely genuine person. He seems very kind, and very deliberate in terms of how he act and speaks to others (it’s no wonder Brett likes him). I think he and Jake can relate to each other’s war stories. While Jake’s scars are not nearly as visible as the count’s, they both have permanent remnants of the war on their bodies. I think Jake probably takes comfort in that, and being able to relate to someone else’s sickness probably makes yours a little easier to handle.
Everyone is sick, but only some people realize it. The people Brett differentiate as being “one of us” have gone through enough hard times to know that there is a sickness in the world. They are self-aware in a way that the “thems” of the novel are not. However, “they” are certainly afflicted. Everything about their world is extraordinarily artificial. Frances wants to marry Cohn because he’s wealthy enough and she doesn’t think she could catch anyone else. She wants children because it sounds better and more successful than the idea than not having children, though she hates them. Cohn cares more for the romantic ideal of Brett than the sordid details. They immerse themselves in a privileged, booze-insulated bubble of Paris each night. Although they are bored and miserable and drive each other insane, none of them are truly aware of the sickness and simply continue with the way things are because it’s the path of least resistance. As Jake shows in his comment about everyone hating Paris because they are following Mencken, they’re not exactly very independent thinkers for the most part. And even Jake and Brett, who are more aware of the world, fall into the same trap. After all, Brett is marrying someone, it appears, for appearance’s sake.
ReplyDeleteCount Mippipopolous is different in that he genuinely seems to be content. Not fatuously so, and ultimately dissatisfied as “they” tend to be, but genuinely happy. Like Jake and Brett, he’s experienced his fair share of misfortunes, specifically those at war, and holds fewer illusions of the world. This differentiates him from the privileged and ignorant “them”, although he is similar to them in social status, if not more elevated. However, he is also unlike Brett and Jake, who are pretty miserable people at the end of the day. This contrast seems to lie in his ability to appreciate small details, like fine wine, in a way that makes his life not a repeated nightmare. He has seen the horrors the world has to offer and has lived fully, and does not desperately strain for the meaning or purpose or idealistic love that torments the other characters. Neither Brett nor Jake seem to have the same appreciation for what is still good in the world after their experiences. Even in terms of the wine, it’s clear that Brett drinks to get drunk and forget whatever it is that makes her miserable, while the count forces her to slow down a bit to actually taste the wine. He doesn’t do things he doesn’t want to do either. Or at least, he doesn’t insist on doing things for the wrong reasons. Brett is still marrying someone she evidently is remarkably uncommitted to, considering she doesn’t even respond to his letters. I would think that the count does not have too much of a difference between his outside and inside self. At the very least, he’s at peace with both selves.
1. Everyone is sick. Some are better at concealing it than others. In this novel, like what Georgette says, everyone is sick, but some are better at containing their sickness or they are sick to a lesser degree than others. I think the sickness in this book is the human condition. It is never being happy with what you have and always wanting something else. It is having a plan and no part of that plan coming into fruition, like Jake going off to fight in a war and coming back as less of a man. I think the sickness in this book is also depression which is showcased in the copious amounts of alcohol that every character consumes. Alcohol is a depressant, but the characters in the book use it as a way to get out of their depression, to get out of their own heads. Many of the characters are overwhelmed by a feeling of uselessness. Their life lacks purpose and meaning which is why they turn to drink.
ReplyDelete2. Count Mippipopolous is not as sick as the others which is seen in how little alcohol he consumes in comparison to Brett and Jake. I do not think that anyone can genuinely enjoy the taste of brandy even if it is from 1811, though. People like the feeling that comes along with alcohol. Count Mippipopolous likes the feeling that expensive alcohol brings. I think the primary reason he likes it is not because he gets “more value for my money in old brandy than in any other antiquities,” but he enjoys the feeling of being able to drink away hundreds of dollars. He enjoys that brief moment of validation that the expensive brandy brings. I think Mippi would tell Jake to figure out what he truly values and focus on his values, rather than letting himself be consumed by the depressive state of the world. While Mippi searches for validation in expensive liquor, which I would argue is not a good source of validation, it still brings him joy. Jake needs to find something that brings him true Joy, other than Brett who only brings him more sorrow. Jake needs to find what he values.